LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 126 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ********************** REMOVED: 25 OCT 83 **************************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 Leonard: BWMS RUNS ON AN 8080 PROCESSOR. THE ONLY SOURCE I HAVE IS A 26 PAPER COPY OF A SOURCE THAT WAS CLOSE TO THE REAL CODE THAT RUNS IN 27 BWMS I THEN HAND PATCHED THE MODS TO MAKE BWMS AS YOU SEE IT HERE. 28 THE WHOLE MESS WAS THEN BURNED INTO 2708'S. ALL OF THIS BEING DONE 29 ABOUT 4 YEARS AGO. (THE ORIGINAL CODE WAS WRITTEN IN 1978.) 30 DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? 31 TO PERSON ASKING ABOUT PNB AND MODEMS: 32 SOUTHERN BELL IS CURRENTLY CHARGING EXTRA IF YOU USE A MODEM ON ONE OF 33 THEIR LINES. THERE IS CURRENTLY A COURT BATTLE GOING ON ABOUT THIS. THERE 34 IS ALSO SOME CONGRESSIONAL ACTION GOING ON AS WELL. YES, MA DOES HAVE 35 EQUIPMENT THAT CAN DETECT MODEMS (AS WELL AS A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS) 36 MODEMS BEING ONE OF THE MORE EASIER THINGS TO CHECK ON. 37 PNB'S CURRENT STANCE ON THE MODEM ISSUE HAS BEEN 'WHO ME?' AND WILL PROBABLY 38 REMAIN THAT WAY UNTIL THE COURT BATTLE HAS BEEN SETTLED DOWN SOUTH AT WHICH 39 TIME MOST OF THE OTHER OPERATING COMPANIES WILL FOLLOW THE DECISION. BUT 40 KEEP IN MIND THAT THE LOCAL PUC HAS THE LAST SAY IN THESE THINGS, SO YOU NEVER 41 KNOW. BUT ONE PREDICTION I WILL MAKE; IF THE CASE GOES IN FAVOUR OF SOUTHERN 42 BELL MANY INFORMATION PROVIDERS WILL GO UNDER. AMONG THESE BEING SOURCE, 43 COMPUSERVE, MICRONET, ECT. IN THE END THIS WILL HURT MA BELL, FOR SHE IS 44 CHASING AWAY THE DIGITAL CUSTOMERS. THEY WILL SHIFT TO LESS EXPENSIVE MEANS 45 OF COMMUNICATING. THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS THE CABLE TV NETWORK. 46 SINCE IT IS ALREADY INSTALLED AND HAS AVAILABLE BANDS WITHIN IT IT WOULD BE 47 A SIMPLE MATTER TO ADD THIS TO IT. WHY MA WOULD WANT TO CHASE AWAY THE 48 DIGITAL USERS IS QUITE BEYOND ME THOUGH. (PROBABLY CAUSED BY SOME NERD AT 49 THE TOP WHO HAS NO IDEA WHAT-SO-EVER AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON UNDER HIS NOSE.) 50 ************* CISTOP MIKEY ************** 21 OCT 83 ********************** 51 52 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 53 54 Aaron: I hope I have not given the wrong impression. I did not mean to 55 suggest that happiness is a thing to be avoided. I agree completely that 56 a more even distribution of said substance as well as an overall 57 increase in its abundance is in order. There are those suffering the pains of hunger, as you mentioned, as well as 58 those at the opposite extreme, who in their sheltered existances, have never 59 experienced pain or sorrow which I feel are two important constituents of 60 life. These two groups would benefit greatly by a mutual sharing of their 61 happiness and suffering. As for the ideal ratio of happiness:suffering, I 62 am not sure one exists for humankind 63 as a whole. I rathar suspect that it 64 is determined on an individual basis, but that it is always less than 100%. 65 66 Alex: Well thank you! I am not sure, but I believe you had not yet d 67 discovered BWMS a month or two ago when there was considerable discussion 68 of this subject. I found, then too, 69 of this subject. I found, then too, that I was not alone in my feelings 70 in that regard. CYM and Hrothgar have also expressed similar viewpoints and 71 presented excellant arguments in their favor. Unfortunately our primary 72 catalyst "d" has apparently abandoned BWMS, so at present the arguement is 73 rather one sided. I have long avoided attatchment to any organized religion 74 because of the rigorous definitions fo their beliefs, such as the bible, 75 and Koran, which force those who subscribe to that religion into hypocrisy. 76 A persons beliefs are a product of the summation of his experiences, and 77 since no two persons have had exactly the same experiences; therefore, no 78 two persons have exactly the same beliefs. So to say that all Christians 79 believe the teachings of the bible is to force hypocrisy upon them and those 80 who lack the fortitude to think for themselves, will eventually succumb. 81 82 Dave: Good question. I have often considered how I might contribute to 83 the betterment of the human condition, but I'm afraid the conclusions I have 84 drawn from this consideration would not be appropriate for most Americans. 85 As I mentioned earlier, I feel that the elimination of Christianity would 86 prove very beneficial to the welfare of Americans. How this could be im- 87 plemented is debatable. Of the organized religions that I have mentioned 88 avoiding is organized atheism, but recently I have such organization may 89 be the only hope of extinguishing that which should have died long ago. 90 It is futile for individuals to affect a massive organization unless they, 91 too, form such. Forced hypocrisy may be avoided by proclaiming only one 92 belief common to all of its members; 93 the belief that deities exist only in the minds of those who wish them to 94 exist. There is a rathar large and active atheist organization, "American 95 Atheists" which has a chapter in Portland, but my impression is that they 96 concern themselves largely with Atheist rights, while I am more interested 97 in the wellbeing of future generations than protecting my own rights. If 98 anyone has inside info regarding "AA" or other Atheist organizations I 99 would be interested in hearing about it. Also I would like to hear from 100 CYM, Hrothgar, Alex and anybody else regarding the question of organized 101 atheism. Is this an appropriate first step? 102 103 'XXXXXXX': I'm not sure how to respond to your message; the tone 104 was one of disagreement but the meaning corresponded largely to my 105 own messages. Particularly the latter half of your message I find no dis- 106 agreement with whatsoever. Could you 107 possibly clarify the first sentance, though. Were you implying that the 108 freedom to disregard commitments and to disrupt society is favorable? If 109 so, then we do differ considerably on that point. What concerns me most 110 is that there are so many who feel no 111 moral obligations contrary to these "freedoms". Your comment that people 112 are like kids illustrates the consequences of this amorality, although 113 I feel it was a bit overgeneralized. 114 It might be more appropriate (but admittedly still generalized to an ex- 115 tent) to say that American people are like American kids or vise versa. 116 (I am asuming that by "people" you mean adults) The reason for this is 117 obvious. Is it not the nature of the teacher-student relationship that the 118 student learns from the teacher? So when Johnny's Daddy dumps Johnny's 119 Mommy and runs away with his secretary, what can we expect Johhny to 120 learn from this but that commitments are unimportant and need be honored 121 only when it is convenient or pleasant to do so. And what is he to learn 122 when mommy consistantly leaves him with a baby-sitter while she goes 123 partying except that partying is more important than responsibility and 124 that party-goer's company is more enjoyable than his. 125 It is true also that Japanese (if you will forgive my repeated reference 126 thereto) adults are like Japanese kids or vise versa, for the same reason. 127 But Japanese in general are considerably different from Americans, and 128 the kids of each culture exemplify this. I found a pleasant change to 129 have a quiet peaceful meal in a Tokyo restaurant without having some un- 130 disciplined kid screaming in my ear. It was even more pleasant to find 131 that this was the rule rather than the exception (even in McDonalds). 132 This phenomenon is the result of a type of family relationship that has 133 not existed in the US for quite some time. That is a relationship where 134 the kid is made aware that his parents major concern in life is his well- 135 being instead of their own. With this knowlege he has no reason for re- 136 bellion, and every reason to respect their requests. 137 This, I feel, is the primary reason that juvenile delinquency and, there- 138 fore, violent crime in Japan are almost nonexistant. If antisocial 139 behavior is a result of a free society, maybe that should indicate that 140 "freedom", at least by that definition, is not necessarily desirable. 141 From the point of your comment regarding total happiness to the end 142 of your message, I am in complete agreement. 143 144 Dirty Ol' Man 145 146 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 147 148 DOM: "Is this an appropriate first step?" Yes, if your goal is defined as 149 applied to the smallest segment of societal neighbors that is significant to 150 you. Seems to me that you have your sights set unobtainably high and that 151 interim disappointment may dissuade you from continuing ACTION toward your 152 desired change. But if you DO it, rather than just TALK it -- even tho' I 153 may not agree with your intent -- then I will applaud in the one sense. 154 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dave~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 155 A while back people were talking about the idea of Utopia. As I recall, the 156 source of the word Utopia means, 'nowhere.' We can take our cue from this. Our concept of an ideal world would change 157 as our current situation changes, so I think that 'Utopia' is like 'tomorrow', it's always very close but never arrives. 158 DOM: Unfortunately, organized atheism was given a bad name by the various Communist countries. Marx was correct in that 159 religion was 'the opiate of the masses', but his followers made the mistake of attempting to replace one religion with 160 another, Communism. I agree that elimination of religion would improve the world tremendously, however. 161 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon ::::::::::::::: 162 } 163 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 164 RE. UTOPIA: THE DEGREES OF HAPPINESS (AND UNHAPPINESS) A PERSON CAN 165 FEEL SEEM UNRELATED TO ANY GENERAL MEASUREMENT. A PERSON WHO HAS HAD 166 NOTHING BUT SORROW AND MISERY IN THEIR LIFE CAN FIND GREAT JOY IN A 167 SIMPLE GIFT, OR THE FIRST SOLID MEAL IN A LONG TIME. CONVERSELY, A 168 PERSON WHO HAS HAD NEARLY EVERYTHING THEY COULD WANT IN LIFE CAN FEEL 169 EXTREME SORROW WHEN THEIR FAVORITE POLO TEAM LOSES, OR IF THEY CAN'T 170 HAVE THE NEWEST AND MOST ADVANCED TOY. 171 FROM THIS IT WOULD SEEM THAT SORROW AND JOY WILL NEVER BE ELIMINATED 172 DUE TO OUR SEEMING NEED TO FEEL THESE EMOTIONS. IF WE HAVE NO TERRIBLE 173 EVENTS IN OUR LIVES TO FORCE GREAT SORROW, WE WILL FEEL IT FROM EVENTS 174 LESS TERRIBLE. IF WE HAVE NO GREAT EVENTS TO CAUSE EXTREME JOY, WE WILL 175 FEEL THIS JOY FROM SMALL EVENTS. 176 I WOULD THEN CONCLUDE THAT IF UTOPIA IS TO BE REACHED, THE MEASURE 177 OF SORROW AND JOY (HAPPINESS/UNHAPPINESS, OR WHATEVER TERMS YOU WISH) 178 CANNOT BE A DETERMINING FACTOR. HOW THEN CAN WE DEFINE UTOPIA? 179 180 DJJ, ONE WAY TO DEFEND AGAINST "RIGHTS" BEING ABRIDGED BY THE MAJORITY 181 IS FOR ALL TO REMEMBER THAT THOSE "RIGHTS" ARE A CREATION OF SOCIETY, NOT 182 SOME PRE-EXISTANT SET OF RULES. PEOPLE QUITE OFTEN HAVE THEIR "RIGHTS" 183 TAKEN AWAY WHEN THEY BELIEVE THAT THE "RIGHTS" ARE SOMEHOW A NATURAL LAW. 184 THEY TREAT IT AS IF REPEALING THEIR RIGHTS WAS AKIN TO REPEALING THE LAW 185 OF GRAVITY. WHEN THEY FINALLY REALIZE THEIR "RIGHTS" ARE GONE, THEY ARE 186 LOST. 187 ANOTHER IS AN EXTREME CONCERN FOR THE "RIGHTS" OF OTHERS. WHEN 188 YOU'RE READY TO DEFEND OTHERS, THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO DEFEND YOU, AND 189 IT WILL ALSO MAKE YOU MORE AWARE OF HOW TENUOUS SUCH THINGS ARE. 190 191 DOM, YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT ABOUT SOME FEELING IT UNETHICAL TO CONSIDER 192 THE SHORTCOMINGS OF AMERICA. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A VIABLE AND ENERGETIC 193 SOCIETY WELCOMES SUCH DEBATE IN ORDER TO EVOLVE TO MEET THE CHALLENGES 194 OF AN INCREASINGLY COMPLEX AND CHANGING WORLD. WITHOUT SUCH DEBATE, WE 195 CAN ONLY STAGNATE, AND WILL EVENTUALLY DIE AS A CULTURE. 196 RE. YOUR (DOM) COMMENTS ON JAPANESE CULTURE AND SOCIETY, YOU SEEM 197 FAMILIAR WITH TAOISM. ARE YOU? 198 199 ALEX, SORRY IF I TOOK YOUR METAPHOR LITERALLY. I DIDN'T REALIZE IT 200 WAS A METAPHOR AS THERE WAS NO MENTION OF CORPORATIONS, AND I NEVER 201 THOUGHT OF "HAND-TO-MOUTH" IN THOSE TERMS, NOR DID I CONNECT THE TERM 202 "LIFESTYLES" WITH CORPORATIONS AS THEY ARE LIFEFORMS ONLY IN AN ALLEGORICAL 203 FORM. AS YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT, I FIND THAT I AGREE WITH YOU. 204 205 TO: WHOMEVER 206 RE: MODEMS 207 208 PNB IS A UNION SHOP, AND THE MANAGEMENT PERSONAL DON'T USE TOOLS. 209 I CAN'T ACCEPT THE OPINION OF UPPER-LEVEL MANAGEMENT ABOUT TECHNICAL MATTERS 210 AS THEY AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH CURRENT TECHNOLOGY IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN 211 A SALES AND PROMOTIONAL SENSE. MOST HAVEN'T USED TOOLS SINCE THE DAYS 212 WHEN STEP-BY-STEP AND CROSS-BAR OFFICES WERE THE CURRENT STATE OF THE ART, 213 AND KNOW LITTLE OR NOTHING OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE IN AN ESS OR EAX C.O.. 214 BAD WOULD BE A BETTER SOURCE FOR SUCH INFORMATION SINCE HE IS A BELL 215 TECHNICIAN OR INSTALLER (I'M NOT SURE WHICH). 216 217 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][] 218 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Oct 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 219 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14:41 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 220 The wind blusters against the Inn sign on an afternoon with swiftly- 221 moving clouds, nosing at the door crevices and merrily swirling the leaves 222 into frenzied dances in the courtyard. Through them strides a figure with 223 dark tousled hair and bright, expectant eyes, carrying ancient parchments 224 along with the freshly-inked in an untidy pile in her arms. 225 DOM, I give you a grand sweeping curtsy and a sparkling smile! Though 226 I tumbled out of the Inn in a tremendous hurry the last evening, I caught 227 the beginning of your courteous address and was reassured of your intent. 228 For a while, yes, I was obliged to curtail my visits (and my living room 229 is still the sembelence of a holocaust) but I will rejoin you soon. But 230 now I have kept too many would-be visitors at bay with my leisurely 231 wandering, so I must tantalize you further by holding my peace. 232 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 233 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 234 To: ALL 235 In regard to general statements toward Christianity, it becomes clear 236 that most are not aware of pseudo-Christianity as opposed to the 237 "real thing." This is not an opinion, rather a truism from the 238 Christian reference, the Bible. Consider Matthew 7:13,14: 239 "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road 240 leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 241 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, 242 and few are the ones finding it." 243 This was spoken to Christ's disciples during the Sermon on the Mount, not 244 to so-called 'unbelievers'. Also, verses 22,23 say: 245 "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy 246 in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful 247 works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew 248 you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." 249 So it is plain from this that the vas majority of so-called Christians 250 are not the real thing. Also an apostate form of Christianity was expected 251 in fact guaranteed! Second Thessalonians 2:2-5 states: 252 "Not to be quickly shaken from your reason, nor to be excited either 253 through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a 254 letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 255 Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the 256 apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son 257 of destruction. He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone 258 who is called "god" or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the 259 temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remem- 260 ber that, while I was yet with you, I used to tell you these things?" 261 Again, this was written to the Christian congregation, not to 'unbelievers' 262 This is how apostate Christianity manifests itself. By setting itself up 263 as "god" over its followers. Even to the point of invalidating scriptural 264 law. Apostate Christianity in this manner stagnates free thinking, because 265 it imposes tradition, church theology and interpretation over truth. In 266 this way, true Christianity is hard to identify, which is why the founder, 267 Christ, said at Matthew 7:7,8: 268 "Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you 269 will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone 270 asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it 271 will be opened." 272 Any-hey, the point is that Christianity (pseudo of course) is indeed a 273 major contributing factor to world unrest, war, social problems, and is a 274 definite barrier to Egalatarianism, whereas the opposite is true of TRUE 275 Christianity. Therefore, the "narrow way", being in the minority, has a 276 low profile in comparison and is clouded by the acts of false Christianity, 277 which was also guaranteed and expected, as shown by 2 Peter, chapter 2. 278 "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as 279 there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will 280 quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that 281 bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, 282 many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these, 283 the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. But these men, like 284 unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, 285 in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even 286 suffer destruction in their own course of destruction, wronging them- 287 selves as a reward for wrongdoing. They consider luxurious living in 288 the daytime a pleasure. They are spots and blemishes, indulging with 289 unrestrained delight in their deceptive teachings while feasting together 290 with you. They have eyes full of adultery and unable to desist from sin, 291 and they entice unsteady souls. They have a heart trained in covetousness. 292 They are accursed children. Abandoning the straight path, they have been 293 misled...These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent 294 storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved. For they 295 utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh 296 and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people 297 who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, 298 they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is 299 overcome by another is enslaved by this one...The saying of the true 300 proverb has happened to them: "The dog has returned to its own vomit, 301 and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire." 302 (Sound like any so-called "Christian" religious leaders you know?!) 303 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?! DEBORAH 4:46 PM 304 305 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 306 307 YES, IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF WHAT I SEE ON CERTAIN CABLE CHANNELS. 308 SOME OF THESE "LEADERS" OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY ARE REPULSIVE 309 MANIPULATORS OF THE BASIC GOOD INTENTS OF THEIR FOLLOWERS. I FIND MUCH 310 THAT IS GOOD IN BASIC CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY, BUT THE THINGS THAT ARE DONE 311 AND SAID IN ITS NAME BY THESE CREATURES ARE WHAT DESTROY ITS VALUE IN THE 312 EYES OF EVERYONE ELSE. AND ITS A SHAME, BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY HAS MUCH 313 TO OFFER, EVEN TO THOSE THAT DON'T BELIEVE IN CHRIST. 314 315 d, WELCOME! AND PLEASE HURRY BACK, YOU ARE MISSED! 316 317 ON THE UTOPIA QUESTION, DID ANYONE WATCH THE OLD CLASSIC "LOST 318 HORIZON" ON CINEMAX RECENTLY? VERY LITTLE PHILOSOPHY IS EXPRESSED IN 319 IT, BUT THE EMOTIONAL YEARNINGS FOR UTOPIA ARE GRASPED QUITE EFFECTIVELY. 320 PLUS, RONALD COLMAN! GASP! EXCUSE ME WHILE I DROOL....... 321 322 YES, I KNOW, VERY IMMATURE PAM. 323 324 SO WHAT!! WE ALL CAN ACT LIKE CHILDREN AT TIMES......... 325 326 [][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][][] 327 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 328 DOM: While I do agree with your basic sentiments re: Japan life style. 329 I don't think that I would like to live like that. I find the very 330 regimented life style to be too restrictive for my liking. 331 PAM: Immature? Depends on your point of view. Each person has enjoyments 332 and pleasures that are fitting to them. To say that there is something 333 wrong with having these pleasures simply because someone else does not 334 find them to be enjoyable in my opinion is wrong. Indeed, some would 335 carry that to the opposite extreme. "What? You don't like Fara Fawceit? 336 There must be something wrong with you. Are you gay?" 337 OTHER: A quote I once came across I think is fitting to the general flow 338 of the conversation here. "I do not trust anyone who says that they are 339 doing something for my own good. For I do not know what they are really 340 after. I would rather deal with someone who states his objectives up front 341 as at least I will know what to expect." I have generally found that those 342 who profess loudly about their intent to help you are usualy after 343 something for themselves. Those who truly are out to help do it quietly 344 and expect no reward or thanks. They are happy to just know that they 345 have done something to help improve life a little. Strangly enough these 346 deeds are often the ones that are remembered best. I also am at ease 347 dealing with those who have no intention of assiting me as long as they 348 have no intention of hurting either. This is simply a business deal, and 349 is treated that way. 350 ???????????? The In Sane Scientist ??????????? 22 OCT 83 ??????????????? 351 to: all 352 from: an engineer 353 re: modems 354 There is no equipment that can test a line and determine that a modem is 355 being used when the line is not in use. The resistance of the line can 356 be measured, i.e. the ringer eq number. When the line is in use the 357 line can be monitored by the tel co and automatic equipment can 358 determine the signals present and make a determination that the signal 359 is probably from a modem from the frequencies being transmitted. 360 However r this is not likely and could be subject to the legal 361 question of monitoring each lin. 362 363 to: "engineer" 364 from: your loving public 365 re: modems 366 367 Of course you can't test for equipment not in use. I don't think the 368 question is whether you can. But not likely? No, not likely, but very 369 possible if needed.And whether you know it or not, you are monitored 370 quite often by automatic equippment. 371 from: engineer 372 re: modems 373 like I said a line can be monitored, but even if modem type 374 frequencies are detected. It is questionable whether the information 375 can be used to charge the modem owner due to wiretapping laws. This is 376 not the bible, since I don't work for the telco 377 HI, I'm a KayPro II who had your number passed by a VIC 20. He had no 378 ............................................ 379 Dom, in answer to most of your questions, as to the bad things in life, 380 I fear that if you really look int crime, etc yo will find more in most 381 foreign countries, but our better police (not good, just better) and better 382 reporting( also more honest) make it seem more aparent here. As to divorce 383 adn MA 7, where els CAN you? MA 7? Why not? everyone has to set his or 384 her own margins anyway. Even the 128's can do it. Is it so dificult for 385 you? I hope this isn't too sore a subject. 386 Anon, obviously I don't know who you are since you are anonomous, but 387 I can only judge by your statements, which are those of a self centered 388 parasite. If others, even many others cheat, it is no excuse, only a 389 childish person could claim otherwise. 390 I feel all humans should be treated equally before the law, but the laws 391 of reality are strict. Most of us contribute to the human condition, and 392 help us to a better life (not all, of course & these drones should be 393 excised from the race.) When there is a real bind, and we are in a "zero 394 sum game" I will side with my personal friends over others, but this is 395 an exception. The Earth isn't big enough for going our own separate ways. 396 Utopia has a bad name since it implies the unattainable, but most of 397 what it stand for (universal happiness, etc) is not so far out. We will 398 be happy only when we have the good things we expect and desire, and 399 don't suffer from what we feel we shouldn't. From what I have read of 400 anthroplogy, most cultures are about equally happy, from marginal hunters 401 to the most opulent, but the happiest members os each culture are usually 402 the better off. We can not supply everything anyone could want, but we 403 could easily meet all of everyone's needs, and perhaps reduce his need 404 to fear. 405 The use of drugs is not a result of freedom. It is an attempt to escape 406 a world the user can't cope with, among other reasons. Some are alos 407 also pleasant to use. The useage is usually higher in poor countries, 408 they have more to escape from. 409 Modems: if a 'PNB supervisor' says he doesn't know of a device to detect 410 modems, he may not, but he doesn't know what he is talking about. 411 I have personally installed and used such a device. We were not looking 412 for modems, but for 'blue boxes', which are much harder to find since 413 they are on the line for only a very short time. The thing looks at about 414 100 trunks at a time, and could be easily altered to detect modems; there 415 are also several other things which can do the job. Please note that there 416 is no law against the phone company listening to you, only against using 417 what you say. How you say it isn't protected. We don't detect the modem 418 only the tones it sends when in use. Personally, I doubt that PNB will 419 take much actiona against modems, as it is thinking about getting into the 420 business itself. (not official, just my personal guess) 421 As soon as the TV cable companies get into the act, the special charges 422 will go away, but then with deregualtion, anything a cable company can 423 do, the (much bigger and richer) phone company can also do, or try to. 424 ///////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 425 426 427 428 Well, BAD, you just proved my point. You could have either: 429 1.Supported (with facts) your characterization of me as a 'parasite.' 430 or 2.Withdrawn your statement. 431 432 If you have done (1.) you would have demonstrated your ESP. If you had done (2.) you would have demonstrated your logic. 433 As is, you did neither, demonstrating your illogic. As I stated before, you have NO KNOWLEDGE of either my production or 434 consumption, and can therefore come to no valid conclusion about my net benefit or cost to society. 435 Further, you blindly ignored the fact that my arguments were those of a person who wished to actually avoid all forms of 436 parasitism, benign or otherwise. If I were arguing on a level similar to yours, I might claim that you were being a 437 parasite on the rest of the world, too, but fortunately I recognize that such claims are pointless and unprovable. 438 439 I call on all the other users of this system to recognize and point out to BAD that he has made a nasty and quite 440 unprovable slander on my character, totally without any factual evidence, and has not taken my generous offer for him to 441 withdraw his statement. It is one thing to state opinions on matters of general knowledge, but he is demonstrating 442 a propensity to claim, as fact, things that he has no first- or even second-hand knowledge of. 443 He is showing a definite anti-social streak in this disregard for truth and honesty, and is clearly not above using 444 personal attacks as a substitute for reasoned discussion. He has shown no improvement recently, and is in fact getting 445 worse by the day. He will probably not respond to my complaints, but I feel that he may still be sensitive to the consensus 446 of the rest of the users. 447 448 We have a good thing going here. Because we are mostly anonymous, I would have thought that personal attacks were 449 difficult or impossible. We are what we type, not who we are, where we are, or what our habits might be. As long as we 450 remain thus, intelligent discussion is possible. A person might, for example, argue for the legalization of all drugs, 451 even though he might never have used them, without fearing that such a position would be interpreted as a reflection of 452 his personal activities. This is as it is, and thus it should remain. So let's agree to avoid personal smears, and 453 get down to the business of politics, sex, fucking, money and all the other little things that make life worthwile. 454 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::::::: 455 456 yes, especially sex. 457 458 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 459 Pam, is that the one where they find the shangri-la in some 460 mountain range? Everbody is over 400 years old, etc? 461 462 How do we know which "christianity" is the "narrow path"? In fact, 463 can any of them be considering the various translations in the Biblical 464 texts? Is it possible that a religous entity dosn't have to be 465 "accurate" to be valuble to the current situation mankind is in? For 466 example, examine the Mormons. The basic texts/belief structure of the 467 LDS philosophy is purley arbitrary; it is, at worst, a fiction no 468 better than "Gone with the Wind", or at best, an account of an indi- 469 vidual who had a spiritual experience, and let his imagination get 470 a little ahead of him. Yet "Mormonism", as it exists today, is 471 quite a valid religous entity. The tenants of Mormonism are basicly 472 "positive". Don't kill anybody, Don't drink, Give to the poor, etc... 473 Very little of the LDS structure or of the Mormons themselves could be 474 considered "harmfull" in any form. In fact, isn't it better to have 475 LDS than not? If the Mormons weren't around, how many people would be 476 wandering around without ANY sense of moral structure? I admit that 477 most of LDS philosophy is "simplified" to be attractive to the LCD, 478 yet it is certainly better than leaving the more gullible out as 479 prey for the less scrupules "cults". How do any of us know that 480 Joseph Smith wasn't some smart cookie who had a plan to keep all 481 epsilon-minuses out of "trouble", so that the delta-pluses (sp?) 482 could enjoy higher pursuits without abandoning a large percentage 483 of the population to lawlessness for want of a "simplifed" social 484 order for these types. I strongly suspect that the "president(s)" 485 of LDS inc. today are simply people who are smart enough to realize 486 what is going on, AND smart enough to realize that it is, for the 487 moment, a good thing; and an endevor worth supporting. If I said to 488 any of the BW users ( grand Layde of Dragons and DEBORAH excepted, 489 of course): "You have the opportunity to solve 90% of the worlds 490 problems for 99% of the populataion. Unfortunatly, you will be giving 491 them a social structure based purely on fiction. It is a GOOD social 492 structure (in every sense of "GOOD"), and carefully engineered, 493 yet arbitrary in the sense that it has nothing to do (except for some 494 niceties, like a God) with what you and I know is the "truth". " 495 Mormonism, or the Rajneeshees, offer this with NEAR GAURENTEED 496 results, if we could just let them do their respective things. 497 postscript: (if that mangled hashing of ideas can be labled a 498 "script") I have nothing against the LDS. In fact, MANY of my 499 friends are of that persuasion. I will not stoop to slandeing them, 500 raise an eyebrow, yes, but not slander. Why? Because they are, basicly, 501 "good people". Misled, yes, but none the less "good". And who knows; 502 maybe LDS IS the "true path!" 503 all: my apologies to all who have to struggle thru this mess, its late 504 , and this is unedited. 505 poll: 506 how many of you would take me up on the 90/99 offer? 507 how many of you are getting my TABs and LINEFEEDs as 508 real entities so this text is halfway readable? 509 in fact, here is a one line test..... 511 is "middle" in the middle of a blank screen? 512 Aaron 513 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> very late... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 514 h 515 Here is a new debate that I think we can start...Do private 516 companies (i.e. Willamette subscription Television), have the 517 signal??? Is there such a thing as "PIRATING" or do the air 518 waves (whether radio or microwave) belong to all of us or just 519 some of us. 520 521 Signed, 522 Henry B. O'Sullivan (HBO) 523 ------------------------------- 524 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 525 I think that the fee for receiving HBO or some other such channel is NOT for 526 the airwaves themselves, i.e., we're not paying for a good. We're paying for 527 the service that HBO provides in broadcasting all of the different shows and 528 things that we watch. Looking at it in this light, I don't think that it's 529 right to pirate the "air waves" from HBO. After all, they are providing a ser- 530 vice that many people ask for and if everyone starts taking their products for 531 free, where does it leave them? 532 - - - - - - - - Mad Quark - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 533 ################################################################################ 534 ON THE QUESTION OF AIRWAVE PIRACY: IF THEY SEND THEIR PROGRAMING OVER THE PUBLIC 535 AIRWAVES THEN IT IS NOT PIRACY TO ACCEPT THEM WIYITHOUT PAYING FOR THEM, HOWEVER 536 IF THEY ARE SENT ON WIRES, CABLES, MECHANICAL DEVICES THAT REQUIRE ONE TO TAP 537 INTO PHYSICALLY THEN THIS WOULD BE PIRACY. I CAN'T STOP YOU FROM ENJOYING THE 538 FLOWERS IN MY GARDEN EVEN THOUGH YOU DID NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR PLANTING AND 539 CARE. BUT THEY BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN UNLESS I BUILD A SOLID BARRIER TO EXCLUDE 540 YOUR EYES FROM MY EFFORTS. AS FAR AS I 541 CAN TELL THE AIR IS STILL FREE (AT LEAST FOR NOW) SO ANY THING THAT IT CONTAINS 542 IS ALSO FREE. I HAPPEN TO CHOOSE TO PAY FOR THE DELIVERY OF HBO ETC THROUGH THE 543 CABLE SYSTEM AS IT IS REALLY LESS COSTLYFOR ME THAN TO GO OUT AND BUY A DOWNCONV 544 ER/ANTENNAE, ALSO LESS TROUBLE AS I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT REPAIRS AND UPKEEP 545 . WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE THAT WANT TO GO TO THE EXPENSE OF CIRCUMVENTING THE CAB 546 LE COMPANIES THEN THAT IS THEIR PEROGOTIVE. NUF SAID: 547 548 ###################C.Y.M.##################################10/23 12:28PM######## 549 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 550 551 DOM, 552 KNOWING VERY LITTLE REGARDING "AA" I WILL REFRAIN SIGHTING THAT AS THE 553 "PATH". BUT AS FOR A START TOWARDS A MORE EQUITABLE I FEEL IT WARRENTS FURTHER 554 INVESIGATION. MONDAY I WILL CONTACT THEIR REPRESENTATIVE HERE IN PORTLAND 555 AND BE PERHAPS MORE INFORMED AS TO THEIR PERSPECTIVES ON RELIGION AND THEIR 556 OWN ORGANIZATIONAL TENETS. 557 558 THE HYPOCRICY OF REGIMENTED RELIGION HOW THAT STRIKES A DISSONANT BUT 559 FAMILIAR CHORD IN MY OWN HISTORY. THE LAST TWO YEARS OF MY HIGH SCHOOL CARRER 560 WERE SPENT UNDER THE "BENIGN" TUTELAGE OF JESUITS AT AN ALL-MALE BOARDING 561 SCHOOL ( NOW EXTINCT ) . I HAVE EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND THE RATH RESULTING 562 FROM OPINIONS NOT BEING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR DOCTRINES . 563 THE PARADOXES THEY EXIBIT TO THE SOCIETY THEY SUPPOSEDLY SERVE INDICATE 564 A PROFOUND DISREGARD TO THE REALITY OF THAT SOCIETY. 565 I SIGHT THEIR VIEW OF THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH ( SUBSERVANT ) 566 THE ABJECT CONDEMNATION OF BIRTH CONTROL IN AN EVER MORE CROWDED WORLD 567 AND THE STEADFAST RESOLVE OF THE 568 "INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF MARRIAGE" TO NAME A FEW. 569 AN INSTITUTION ONE WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO CALL RESPONSIVE TO THE PRESSURES 570 AND CHANGES IN A DYNAMIC SOCIETY IT SERVES 571 572 BAD, 573 AS FOR THE DETERMINATION OF THE PARASITICAL COEFFICIENT ( PC ) I AM AFRAID 574 THERE IS NO BASIS FOR A CONCLUSION WITHIN YOUR TEXT. AND YOUR COMMENTS ON 575 THE EXCISION OF DRONES IS FAR TOO REMINICENT OF ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL WHO COST 576 MANKIND A MEAR 6 MILLION SUCH "DRONES" 577 578 579 AARON, 580 581 AHHHHH THE "90/99 PERCENT SOLUTION" 582 583 INTERESTING THOUGHT ........BUT WOULD IT BE THAT SUCESSFUL? 584 EVENTUALLY INDIVIDUALS WOULD RECOGNIZE THE FRAUD ..... WHAT THEN ANOTHER RUSE ? 585 WHY NOT BEGIN WITH FACTS AND FOSTER A RATIONAL RESPONSIVE GROUP FROM THE 586 BEGINING ? 587 588 589 << ALEX>> 590 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 591 592 About the bombing in Beriut, I think we should nuke Iran, if thats not 593 possible then the CIA should assasinate several of their leaders 594 595 ................................................................................ 596 DOM: I'm sorry, but if you want to "eliminate" Christianity, I find YOU more 597 offensive than any of "them". I see no reason for interfering with someone's 598 beliefs. UN The ONLY justification for interfering with another person is when 599 their ACTIONS endanger OTHERS (if they want to hurt THEMSELVES, who cares?). 600 I admit that there would still be some problems, but it might work better than 601 most others systems. (OOPS, that should be "harm or endanger", not just 602 "endanger"). 603 If someone's beliefs are DEMONSTRABLY at odds with the universe, it will soon 604 become VERY obvious. As for the "not proven" aspects of their beliefs (e.g. the 605 existence of God), if it can't be proved/disproved then Wwho are YOU to say that 606 they shouldn't believe them? 607 _____________________________Leonard____________________________________________ 608 WELL NOW! 609 DEAR PAM: LOST HORIZEN A FAVORITE OF MINE, JUST CHECKED THE STACKS IN 610 THE GARAGE AND COULDN'T FIND IT. WANTED TO COMPARE AMOUNT OF ACTUAL PHILOSOPHY 611 IN THE MOVIE TO THE BOOK, BUT CAN'T UNTILL I FIND IT. LIKE THE 'SIDHARTHA' 612 OF HERMAN HESS AND SEVERAL OF THE WORKS OF RUDYARD KIPLING, L-H WAS A 613 SUCCESS ON TWO LEVELS: THE FIRST BEING THAT OF THE ENCHANTING AND FAR AWAY 614 ADVENTURE AND THE OTHER BEING THE GENTLE INTRODUCTION TO EUROPEAN READERS 615 OF A LITTLE ASIAN PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGION. FIRST READ L-H AS A CHILD AND 616 NEVER FORGOT IT. P.S. AM INTERESTED IN TAO-SHAOLIN-ZEN AREA MYSELF IF YOU'D 617 CARE TO DISCUSS IT. 618 DEAR DOM: NOTE ABOVE TO PAM. THESE ARE NOT RELIGIONS. RE:DAVE AND *ACTION* 619 I AGREE WITH HIM THAT SOME ACTION IS DESIRABLE, BUT LETS KEEP PRIORITIES 620 ORGANIZED. ALSO, I HAVE SOME BACKGROUND IN POLITICAL ACTIVISM AND KNOW 621 HOW TOUGH IT REALLY CAN BE TO GET ANYTHING DONE TO BETTER THE WORLD FROM 622 THE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING TRIED. ONLY RARELY CAN ONE DO ANYTHING MORE THAN 623 TEND ONES OWN YARD. GIVEN THE LIMITED AMOUNT ONE PERSON CAN REALLY DO, I 624 THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO CHOOSE ONE'S FIELD OF ACTION CAREFULLY. I AM 625 FORCED TO SAY THAT I THINK COMBATTING CHRISTIANITY IS NOT AT THE TOP OF MY 626 LIST. BESIDES, SPEAKING OUT AS YOU ARE IS THE APPROPRIATE ACTION ON THAT. 627 BUT, "IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM" I TOO WOULD BE IN FAVOR OF DOING SOMETHING. I HAVE BEEN 628 STAGNANT POLITICALLY TOO LONG MYSELF, HAVING BECOME DEEPLY CYNICAL AFTER THE FIRST CONTACT OF MY IDEALS WITH REALPOLITIC. 629 AS MANY AS 100,000,000 AFRICANS MAY STARVE IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS - HOW ABOUT SOME EFFORT THERE? !!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!